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| ● This JHT beta articles has passed through the beta review process and is now a published article in the Journal of Human Thermodynanics, the beta-stage peer review version and discussion of which (shown below) is archived here. |
| Reviewers |
Threads: Erich Muller credit (Oct 22), Pan et al 2005 (Oct 25), Entropy and your Dong (Oct 26), Listing reviewers in the publication (Oct 26), Kenoun's review (Oct 28), On Jurgen's review and view of temperature (Nov 15).
Comment one: “To my mind, the publication proposal you have asked about, is not to be published in Hmolpedia, for it has in fact nothing to do with thermodynamics at any rate.”
Comment two: “Well, if it's going to be published, then, sure, it's fine with me ... I have in effect no other comments ... And I'm now in fact busy with submitting my second paper on George Augustus Linhart and his bright thermodynamic ideas, as well as about how G. A. Linhart's ideas are connected with those of Gilbert Newton Lewis.”
Review: “I found this article pretty interesting. I am not a mathematician or a molecular biologist but would suggest that you consider some of the extraneous things like religion, belief, love, etc., to be analogous to electron rich donors and what we call evil, excess or vice to be akin to electron poor elements. Clearly, what an electron rich mixture will add is considerably more valuable, in cases, where electrons are needed. Covalent bonds, etc., are more readily formed. Just a thought” (thread: things that cannot be counted) (Oct 25)
About: author of the 2009 book Thermoeconomics.
Review: “Had quick look at the study - interpersonal relationship research is not my field, wouldn't a qualified psychologist be a better bet? In passing, I thought the connections towards the end were a bit tenuous, but I can't claim to be an expert in any sense.” (Oct 25)
Comments: “Understanding DMRSekhar's comments on the lack of peer review, it is still not normal to list the reviewers in the publication. The "entropy and your dong" reference for one reviewer alone is enough for most 'academics' to stop considering the publication alone. Please reconsider the reviewer referencing accordingly.
I first need to read Erich Muller's article. Are the affiliations correct? Reference checking is a terrible, but necessary task in reviewing an article. Are the references truly correct/relevant? Who should check them? More information on the study needs to be included. Especially the notions of 'emotional intelligence' 'introvert' and 'extrovert' need to be explained in greater detail as to their definition and correlation/analogy to thermodynamic variables.
Refrain as the editor of adding or changing the article itself. Suggestions of changes are acceptable, but the editor should not actually modify the submission in any way. Not familiar with the Leonard-Jones potential, so cannot comment on its applicability. With regards to the personality test, the difference and uniqueness need to be statistically quantifiable terms. The corresponding author from the Dept. of Human Science is hopefully a psychologist or someone qualified to explain those statements further.
Why was the particular personality test chosen? The statistical analysis of results should be elaborated further. The concept of 'stability' is not well defined even in mathematics, how is it defined in their study?” (Oct 25)
Response: “In my view, when a complex system’s behavior is analyzed by the laws of its constituent subsystems (although to some extent they may influence it behavior but generally insufficient) to explain the behavior of the complex system, they fall short of explaining it due to the fact that the complex system have added characteristics not fully explained by the laws that govern the behavior of subsystems.
Let us look at the insufficiency of the plot presented by Lennard Jones potential model when applied to human relations.1 - In very small distances the plot shows strong repulsive forces between humans. That may be true for two people who are fighting each other but what about two people making love to each other. In the later case the forces are attractive but the plot does not support this scenario.
2 – In very long distances the potential forces could be zero, positive or negative but the plot shows these forces are zero only.
But what about the loving relationship between mother and son that due to circumstances they are living in two different states. The potential forces between them are still attractive and strong even though they live far apart. What about the bitter husband and wife that have divorced each other and live in two different states. Despite far distances between them the forces between them are repulsive. And finally, what about one way love relationship, one partner madly in love with his girlfriend but the girlfriend not so much with her boyfriend. Such one way attraction can never be found in molecular level. In molecular level attraction or repulsion comes from both sides, no exception. The following plot illustrates the cases we discussed above:This plot definitely represents a good percentage of people, not a minority. Now the philosophical question here is this. If we can take a law from the simplest system and apply it to a complex system and expect it to work, would that be also possible to take a law from the complex system and apply it to the simplest system and expect it to work? Does the law of reciprocity apply? If it does, then the plot shown above should also explain the behavior of systems at molecular level. Does it? Not really. So, if it doesn’t, then why should we insist that the other way around is a valid approach.
With this logic I intend to say that the behavior of a complex system cannot be defined by basic laws at the atomic and molecular level. There is much more to that. Complex systems possess a great deal of other characteristics all emerged from the chain of subsystems in their hierarchy influencing their behaviors. This is not to say that the laws of thermodynamic do not apply to living beings. Yes they do. But we have to be careful how to apply them.
So, in my view this plot that explains the repulsive and attractive forces at molecular level is insufficient and inaccurate when applied to human relations. When so many cases are not explained or supported by a theory, the theory has a weak foundation, and obviously, in this case, it is incapable of producing accurate and falsifiable predictions; a scientific process for benchmarking the strength of a theory.
The other thing that I do not see in this article is the verification of the theory based on the collected data. I do not see how this data proves the accuracy of the theory based on the plot presented. Does the measured data, when plotted, produce similar or identical plot like the one plotted by theory? If I am wrong in my assessment, it would be beneficial to correlate the experimental data and the theory to enhance the credibility of the research. Let us not forget that culture is a huge factor in this study (complex system’s characteristic not covered by the laws at molecular level) and a similar study in US will produce enormously different results.” (Oct 28)
Review: “I read the paper and agree with John Bryant’s review.” (Oct 31)
Review: “I read this article though not a specialist in the field. The authors tried to give scientific explanation to friendship stability based on their experimental (survey) work. Anon reviewer 1, pointed out, “the notions of 'emotional intelligence' 'introvert' and 'extrovert' need to be explained in greater detail as to their definition and correlation/analogy to thermodynamic variables.” The authors should take note of it while revising the article.
I suggest that the authors should see if they find any analogy between friendship stability and the substance stability ideas of Prof G. Gladyshev and the same may be included in the discussion part.
Because this article is already here at this site (deemed published) it is under Post Publication Open Review which allows the authors to select/invite potential reviewers. Kindly ask the authors to suggest one or two senior reviewers in this field who can give a favorable recommendation. Kindly do not reject this article because this is an experimental work. Allow the authors to revise keeping the comment of Anon Reviewer 1 and my suggestions here” (thread: comment, 31 Oct).
Review: “In thermodynamics of metals or salts the inter-atomic (Lennard-Jones) potential may be obtained experimentally using models like the Grueneisen–Debye model (J. Mimkes, M. Luebbers, H. H. Thomas. (1994). "Thermophysical Properties of cubic elements", Thermochimica Acta, 245:1-19). The coefficients of the attractive and repulsive potentials are given by the Grueneisen parameter G and the pressure coefficient K0.
I do not know whether or how the Eysenck Personality Questionnaire (EPQ) (Eysenck, 1975) and the emotionally intelligent test (Bar on) (Bar-On, 2000) are able to extract the parameters “r”, “s” and “e” in social systems. In heterogeneous interactions the interaction parameter (e) requires information about the “other” partner, like + or – for electrons or a specific factor for multivalent ions.
In my work on cohesion of binary societies, I have used the nearest neighbour model. For the stability of a thermodynamic or social system, one does not need to know the actual potentials. In binary (A-B) alloys and binary (A – B) societies the stability or cohesion (E) and the structure of the systems may be obtained from the difference between attraction to the “other” groups [ EA B + EB A ] and the “own” groups [ EA A + EB B]:E = [EA B + EB A] – [EA A + EB B]
where E A B is the attraction or repulsion of A elements to the other group B, EB A is the attraction or repulsion of B elements to the other group A, EA A is the attraction of A elements to the own group A, and EB B is the attraction of B elements to the own group B. Only the sign of (E) will determine the structure of the system:
E > 0 the attraction to the other group is stronger than the attraction to the own group and leads to a sodium chloride structure AB A B A B A B, to marriage of man – woman, to cooperation of buyers – sellers etc. E = 0 the attraction to the other group is equal to the attraction to the own group. This leads to Cu Ni alloys, to ideal integration, mixture, A B B A A A B A B B, to people shopping or children at the beach. E < 0 the attraction to the own group is stronger than the attraction to the other group and leads to Fe Pb structure A A A A B B B B, to segregation of Sunni and Shia, Irani and Jews, Moslems and Christians.
There is one further parameter that can turn segregation into integration: temperature T. All segregated solids or liquids will be integrated as a gas. In society, this parameter T may be interpreted as tolerance, in economic systems as standard of living. At high standard of living, at high tolerance all social systems may be integrated. In heterogeneous systems with three or more different elements, the number of parameters will grow, accordingly. With four different neighbors of A: B, C, D, E we have the interaction of AA AB BA BB AC BC CC AE BE CE EE etc. In my opinion, one potential is not sufficient for heterogeneous societies.” (Nov 15)
Review: “Before review, let me thank you for that opportunity to contribute with (hopefully constructive) comments to work of some of members of our community. The manuscript deals with a rather interesting, and rather novel topic. In that sense, I am glad to read such a text, and I hope that the authors will continue their work and develop further the methodology.
There are several comments I have about the manuscript:1. Title could resemble more the introductory level of the text (include in it works like "Toward development of thermodynamics methodology ...").
2. I miss some basic fit of the Lennard-Jones potential to collected data, but ...
3. It is not clear why such a detailed form like LJ potential is taken. For the present level of development, some piece-wise constant potential (e.g. square well of finite depth) suffices,
4. Suppression of mentioning thermodynamics in sections Methodology and Results would enhance consistency of the text.
Kind regards.” (Nov 15)
Reply (to thread: On Jurgen's review and view of temperature): “Libb, my interpretation of temperature T in social science has indeed been chosen by the phonetic word tolerance. But this is based on the second law of thermodynamics and the Lagrange principle L = U – T S → minimum! U is the energy of cohesion, which is negative in physics. T is temperature and S the entropy. We both may feel that sympathy or love as cohesive energy of societies must be expressed in a positive way:
- L = - U + T S → maximum
Renaming - L = L* and - U = E leads to the social Lagrange principle:
L* = E + T S → maximum!
Happiness L* of society is determined by the strength of emotional cohesion or love E. We also have the terms T and S. Entropy is a measure of disorder, of individual freedom (of others). Many people do not like disorder or individual freedom of others, but happiness of society will only be at maximum, if everybody tolerates (T) disorder (S) due to the freedom of others. Again the social Lagrange principle:
L* = E + T S → maximum!
Happiness L* of a society is at maximum, if the emotional cohesion E within the society and the tolerance T of individual freedom S are at maximum. Entropy S = ln P is dimensionless. The functions L*, E and T have the dimension of "emotions": happiness, love, tolerance. This proves tolerance to be the proper interpretation for T in societies. In physics, L, U, T have the dimension of energy: free energy, cohesive energy and mean energy or temperature. In economic systems L, U, T have the dimension of money: L: "free" capital (?) corresponding to free energy, U: capital, T standard of living. In general, systems L, U, T have the dimension of the constant U. L is the Lagrange function and T is always the Lagrange parameter.” (Nov 16)
| Author[s] response |
Response (to reviewers): “Thank you very much for entering my article into the beta review process. I read the constructive reviewer’s comments and really I think the “beta review process” is interesting. Actually I don’t know about the different steps of the process, but I will grateful if you let me to remove an important misunderstanding. After reading the reviewer’s comments from my dear colleague "Robert Kenoun", I think that it is necessary to explain something:
I really agree with this case that “the complex system have added characteristics not fully explained by the laws that govern the behavior of subsystems”. However, as you know, in proof by mathematical induction, first a "base case" is proved, and then an "induction rule" is used to
prove a series of other cases.
According to my opinion, there is big difference between the molecular interaction and human one. Thinking, feeling and making a decision is only for human. So the human interactions are more complicated than molecular interactions which may be affected only by physical distance. Although in the most cases, a human relation may be started after a visual contact but the physical distance is meaningless in human interactions. Using different example cases, the reviewer showed that the human interactions don't have any relation to physical distance. As we mentioned in our paper, although the molecular models such as L-J potential model can be used for describing human interactions and consequently human behaviors, but the intrinsicparameters of human system should be redefined. For instance, the effect of temperature (T) on the molecular interaction is not same as that on human interactions. Actually, this effect is meaningless. A molecule may be characterized by the size, shape and polarity. Are these important for human characterization?! Absolutely, no, they are not.
The classification of humans is based on the individual personality factors, e.g. the emotional intelligent, introvert and extrovert dimensions. These may be depended on the different factors such as gender, age, religion, culture, history and background relations especially in the first decade of life. So, in this work, the friendship relations and their stability are evaluated based on the personality differences. So the “r” in the new proposed potential model is the personality difference which totally is different from physical distance.I will be looking forward to receiving the comments by your reviewers in regard to our manuscript.” (Oct 31)
Response (to reviewers): “At first, I would like to thank you and the reviewers for taking the time and effort to review the manuscript. I would also like to thank the reviewers for their professional approach, detailed evaluation and the valuable comments. Due to the reviewers’ comments, I should describe something in the following:
1- To understand each complex system such as a society, we need to break it down into its component parts, understand their individual characters, and then see how they interact with one another to generate the whole.
2- A molecule can be characterized by its size, shape, polarity and energy. Each molecular character has a specific role in the molecular behavior of a system containing like or unlike molecules. So, a human can be characterized as a component part of a social system in the same manner. In our approach, an individual is characterized by its extroversion personality and emotional intelligent as the size and energy characters respectively.
Same as a molecule, human has different kind of energy, e.g. the kinetic and potential. In physics, energy is an indirectly observed quantity. It is often understood as the ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems. Therefore, for the social system, the energy is the different aspects of human abilities such as: (I) the ability to recognize and express emotions and feelings; (II) the ability to manage and control emotions; (III) the ability to solve problems of a personal and interpersonal nature; (IV) the ability to generate knowledge to be self-motivated; and (V) the ability to use the obtained knowledge and skills for survival.
3- The interpersonal potential model can be considered using different intermolecular potential models such as the soft sphere model, L-J model and square well potential model which can be called as one parameter, two parameters and three parameters models respectively. In this work, we have used L-J model as a simple two parameters model for the interpersonal potential description.
4- The Eysenck Personality Questionnaire (EPQ) (Eysenck, 1975) and the emotionally intelligent test (Bar on) (Bar-On, 2000) are used respectively for determining of the extroversion character and the emotional intelligent of people (and ).
5- As I mentioned before, although, in the most cases, a human relation may be started after a visual contact but the physical distance is meaningless in human interactions. So, the authors believe that the friendship relations and their stability are related to the personality differences. In this work, the “r” is the personality difference which is obtained using the EPQ personality assessment test.
6- I completely agree with Professor Mimkes in this point that in heterogeneous interactions the interaction parameters require information about the “other” partner. The parameters of the potential model are different for the binaries (A-B) and (A-C) which can be obtained from the EPQ and (Bar on) tests. In other words, the obtained potential value of the pair (A-B) may be positive (+) while that is negative (-) for the pair (A-C) which respectively indicate the unstable and stable relations. However, this approach allows to study of the quantitative evaluation of human pair relations.” (Nov 20)
| Beta article (draft) |
| A human thermodynamics variables table (stylized on Irving Fisher's 1892 variable table), made by lead author Mohsen Mohsen-Nia, descriptive of the variables used in this article. |
| Venezuelan-born English chemical engineering thermodynamicist Erich Muller’s 1998 Lennard-Jones stylized interhuman potential attraction repulsion model, with positive values for force being indicative of repulsion and negative values of attraction. [1] |
| Figure 1: the schematic diagram of the interpersonal L-J potential model. |
| Table 1: the obtained results of the friendship stability for different type of relations. |
|
Sadi-Carnot |
Latest page update: made by Sadi-Carnot
, Dec 19 2011, 3:52 PM EST
(about this update
About This Update
39 words added 29 words deleted 1 image added 3 images deleted view changes - complete history) |
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Keyword tags:
Evaluation
friendship
Friendship Relations Stability
human interactions
molecular potential model
relationship stability
Thermodynamic Methodology
More Info: links to this page
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| Started By | Thread Subject | Replies | Last Post | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sadi-Carnot | On Jurgen's view of temperature | 1 | Nov 16 2011, 2:02 PM EST by Sadi-Carnot | ||
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Thread started: Nov 15 2011, 2:00 PM EST
Watch
Re: (Jurgen’s comment): “There is one further parameter that can turn segregation into integration: temperature T. All segregated solids or liquids will be integrated as a gas. In society, this parameter T may be interpreted as tolerance, in economic systems as standard of living. At high standard of living, at high tolerance all social systems may be integrated”, in regards to this, I’m not so sure that temperature can be passed off as “tolerance”, this is what is called a “phonetic mapping” (i.e. temperature rimes with tolerance, hence they must be related), very comment in human thermodynamics.
John Bryant’s 2009 book Thermoeconomics, to cite one example, is full of these: he extrapolates the ideal gas law, in the form of PV = NkT, to argue that, in economic terms, this means that P = “price” (phonetically similar to “pressure”), V = “volume flow [of goods and services]” (a guessed attempt to come up with a term similar to the geometric “volume” of a body of gas), and that T = “trading value” (a phonetically similar term to “temperature”). Temperature (at the human social/economic level) is a “very” intricate subject, not something to be passed off to phonetics, but rather to new experimental devices the future will see (based on the zeroth law): http://www.eoht.info/page/Human+thermodynamic+instrument A few related links, to give some comparison: http://www.eoht.info/page/Temperature http://www.eoht.info/page/Economic+temperature http://www.eoht.info/page/Financial+temperature http://www.eoht.info/page/Sexual+temperature http://www.eoht.info/page/Social+temperature Much theoretical and experimental work needs to be done on this subject. |
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| DMRSekhar | comment. | 1 | Oct 31 2011, 8:43 PM EDT by Sadi-Carnot | ||
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Thread started: Oct 31 2011, 4:27 AM EDT
Watch
Dear Libb,
I read this article though not a specialist in the field. The authors tried to give scientific explanation to friendship stability based on their experimental (survey) work. Anon reviewer 1, pointed out, “the notions of 'emotional intelligence' 'introvert' and 'extrovert' need to be explained in greater detail as to their definition and correlation/analogy to thermodynamic variables.” The authors should take note of it while revising the article. I suggest that the authors should see if they find any analogy between friendship stability and the substance stability ideas of Prof G. Gladyshave and the same may be included in the discussion part. Because this article is already here at this site (deemed published) it is under Post Publication Open Review which allows the authors to select/invite potential reviewers. Kindly ask the authors to suggest one or two senior reviewers in this field who can give a favorable recommendation. Kindly do not reject this article because this is an experimental work. Allow the authors to revise keeping the comment of Anon Reviewer 1 and my suggestions here. Thanks, DMR Sekhar |
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| Sadi-Carnot | Kenoun's review | 0 | Oct 28 2011, 10:34 AM EDT by Sadi-Carnot | ||
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Thread started: Oct 28 2011, 10:34 AM EDT
Watch
I just added in Iranian-born American materials scientist, metallurgical and electrical engineer Robert Kenoun’s peer review (sent to me via email) and he makes some good points, e.g. how to explain “potential forces between between people who live far apart” (although I’ll have to think about his graph for a bit). The way I have explained this is in terms of exchange forces (long range exchange forces) and human molecular orbital theory:
http://www.eoht.info/page/Exchange+force http://www.eoht.info/page/Human+molecular+orbital+theory One aspect that his review brings to mind, is that such types of attraction repulsion plots need to be correlated with American mathematical psychologist John Gottman’s mathematically quantified video recordings of actual attraction repulsion interactions of actual married couples, data which is correlated to actual marriage stability and divorce rates: http://www.eoht.info/page/John+Gottman I devote a good amount of material in my 2007 Human Chemistry book to tying his work into that of an exchange force model of human interactions and bondings this into Gibbs free energies of attractions and repulsions: http://www.eoht.info/page/Gibbs+energy+of+attraction http://www.eoht.info/page/Gibbs+energy+of+repulsion as these sum to yield long term state changes of Gibbs free energy, which would likely yield a better model than the L-J potential, although I’ll have to think about this? |
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